Do non-native speakers know the grammar of their target languages better than native speakers?
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by Coral
That question might ruffle some feathers. But whether you’ve subjected your writing to native speakers’ judgment—or vice versa—chances are this question has crossed your mind at some point.
I’ll be the first to step forward.
Three years ago, a German user pointed out that I was completely wrong. I had been teaching people—quite a lot, by the way—the wrong accentuation rule. The norm had changed a few years earlier without me knowing. I had been nitpicking many posts, chanting the rule like a parade leader holding their horn. What can I say? I’m not subscribed to the RAE’s newsletter. I can’t keep up (and neither do I want to) with all the yearly updates in Spanish grammar—my own books are actually full of examples of this same mistake because they were written before the norm was changed.
Now, that brings me to another question: What are the chances we’re stubbornly clinging to old rules our teachers made sure to ingrain in our minds? Remember the FANBOYS mnemonic. Or how terrible it was to split infinitives back then. And there’s also the topic of “If I were" vs "If I was,” which I haven’t figured out yet. So, maybe the real mistake isn't being wrong, but being certain we're right.
Headline image by swimstaralex on Unsplash
I've learned a lot of German grammar rules from language learners. I find it bizarre that we know how to use and even bend our native language without actively knowing the rules.
Really interesting post! There's also the question of tone. I tend to be more formal than most people, so I correct even the things that are now common/idiomatic among native speakers. My very own sister just said 'between you and I' and I had to shoot her on the spot...
I taught English in Japan and Taiwan for 40 years. Often, Japanese and Taiwanese corrected my English now and then because I never thought grammar consciously: everything was subconscious.
@LindasLinguas Hey, Linda. Okay, that's a yes, I think. Same here. It actually makes sense to me. You don't study your own language's grammar beyond a certain age, you just check it, if anything. I'd say the answer is yes in many cases. We just have to admit it.
@Laurelf, you just touched on a topic that drives me crazy. Whenever I learn new words or expressions I need to know their register. By the way, I did my homework on that grammar point a long time ago: When "you and me" is the subject, it's "you and I". When it's the object, it's "you and me". Did I do well?😄
@T-Newfields I'm curious. After so many years living abroad, have you ever felt that Japanese was taking over your English?
As native speakers, we "play" the language by ear. As non-native speakers we use sheet music. Thank you all for your comments!
@Coral they had something like that in Italian. You weren't supposed to say or, God forbid, write lui è andato al negozio ("him went to the store"); you were supposed to say egli è andato. Everyone was saying lui since the Middle Ages, everyone was writing it since the 1830s (it took no less than Mr. Manzoni to get it going), and everyone was feeling bad about it until about fifty years ago. These days, using egli when you're not reciting the conjugation table is like showing up at your neighbor's kid's backyard birthday party wearing a tux and a top hat, and acting smug about it. It's in the asshole register now, which I wish English "Bill and I went to the store" and Russian одеть/надеть distinction ended in—the sooner, the better.
@quassnoi I don't see anything wrong with following grammar rules for clarity and precision, especially when writing in a language that can hardly get by without subjects, like English. In writing. you can't see your interlocutor's face or gestures; you only have linguistic signs.
I also don't see grammar as prescriptive, but more like a compass. It shows you where north is, but you can go south if that's what you want. But like it or not, there are social conventions we can't overlook. I can't speak the same way as teenagers; that would be weird. And that doesn't mean I'm a grammar freak. After Anglo-Saxon had been spoken for centuries in England, French and Latin paradoxically became the languages predominantly used by knowledgeable people, while English was the languaghe used by lower social classes.
Being aware of grammar rules allows me to adapt my message depending on who I'm talking to. I wouldn't say "for you and I" in a job interview or "that's dope!", just like I wouldn't ask a toddler "Are you discombobulated, honey?" Understanding grammar doesn't makes you a snob, it makes you adaptable. I see it as social awareness, not snobbery.