These are by far the trickiest grammar structures I’ve ever come across. I think it’s because they’re counterintuitive compared to Spanish, and it's going to take me a while to get the hang of them.
Almost none of the sentences in bold made it through when I checked them in a translator or grammar checker. Are they formal, or is it just that there are easier ways of saying the same thing? I also know there’s a chance they’re all wrong, and I’ve wasted my time only to end up writing like Yoda. Anyway, here goes:
Yesterday, I had something strange happen. I thought I had my phone stolen. That was the first thing I thought when I had my purse fall, spilling everything in it except the phone.
But no.
I admit I always forget it at home. But yesterday, I was sure I hadn’t, so later I thought, You’d better get your mind fixed...
Don’t you remember that you had the lights go out?
Yes, so what?
Do you also remember that you had your computer freeze?
That might ring a few bells.
Then maybe you remember that you had your house broken into, don’t you?
Really? You mean I had my stuff stolen?
Just the phone.
Then I realized that I had my mind play tricks on me. Actually, my cat had been sitting on the couch all day, right on top of my phone.
Yah, the sentences are all grammatical. You don’t give enough background context for me to determine how natural the sentences are. There is a whole attitude involved with using “had” in such a construction and I don’t know enough about the character or whom she is explaining things to or why she would choose to use this grammatical structure. It is a kind of “distancing” structure.
Ok, I know people who have actually studied grammar will criticize what I am about to describe, but here is how I think of “have”:
I will have you know:
I always think of “have/had/will have/will have had” as just being extra words we want to use when we want to distance ourselves from the role of the doer. But that is just my use of it. I don’t know the official grammatical purpose.
The word “had” is a wiggle word.
It is like the less causative form of “did.”
“I did/didn’t remember” emphasizes/negates my activity.
“I had remembered/hadn’t remembered” is the same thing in a slightly less active way. It is more like saying “I experienced” rather than “I did.” That is why we use a possessive concept (like I obtained an experience).
“I had him remember.” This is a causative form, but not passive. It is the less active form of “I made him remember.” Similar to the difference with “did” and “had.”
We can also talk about someone causing something to us:
“I had better be pleased when I come back to check on your room!”
Ok, now with the causative passive, think of it as a wiggle between “I experienced something someone did to me” and “I caused someone to do something to me.”
So “I had my purse stolen” is more about experiencing the action.
And
“I had my computer fixed” is more about making someone do something.
Same use of the word “had,” but there is a range of uses - whether we acknowledge our own causation or not.
I never heard of the term “passive causative” before. It is fascinating. I like how linguists discover all the wiggles and focuses that people portray without realizing. It is like naming subtle emotions.
@Nemvagok. Thank you for this amazing explanation. Now I know why I couldn’t find a connection between English causatives and Spanish. We use the passive voice and drop subjects all the time, particularly when we want to put some "distance" between an action and whoever did it, as you mention above.
I think I also see why you needed more context. Two sentences like "I had my purse fall" and "I had my assistant type a letter," although identical in structure, convey completely different intention.
When I looked this up online, I found all sorts of terms: passive causative, accidental causative, eventive causative, and a few more. That made me think I was way off track, so I figured I’d just write a post about it.
Thanks again. You just saved me from a massive headache. I’ve been trying to wrap my head around this for ages.
I 'm absolutely amazed at how complicated and versatile such a small "had" can be. Thanks for the post and the explanations.
Some of the sentences in BOLD are possible if the victim wanted to be the victim of a crime. Ordinarily, however, the unfortunate events described in BOLD were not what the victim wanted.
@Coral I'm glad to have saved you some time. Whatever helps!
I don't know anything about Spanish, but I am studying Hungarian which supposedly doesn't have a passive voice.
I once commented to a Hungarian speaker about how I admired Hungarian for not having a way in their language to skirt responsibility.
And the response I got was, "oh we know how to use language to wiggle out of saying who did what, believe me." So it took me a lot of paying attention, to pick up on the methods.
I have recently been coming across terms like "antipassive" and "anticausative" in reading papers on Hungarian grammar. Not stuff that is found in textbooks, just stuff linguistic students are writing for their papers in college and somehow it ends up on the internet... because Hungarian grammar learning material is pretty scarce, so that is what I am reduced to reading when I am hitting my head against the wall...
... I guess it is a universal human trait, for people to figure out how to escape responsibility for what they do.
Please realiaze though that I am not a linguist, I am an accountant. So I am NOT an expert in grammar at all.
@CloudyDe. You're not alone.😀 I think I'm going to need a lot of practice. Thanks for your comment.
@T-Newfields. I think I understand what you mean, but not exaxtly. I've written another post about causative. Hopefully I did better this time. Thanks for commenting.
@Nemvagok. I've always heard that Hungarian is such a difficult language to learn. One day I was curious and took a look at the grammar. It was enough for me to forget about learning Hungarian. Too many suffixes and prefixes. But if your motivation is strong enough there's nothing you can do. Thanks again for your help.
@Coral lol usually I don’t like when someone says Hungarian is a difficult language to learn because it sends a message of two things (1) I am wasting someone’s time by asking them for help (because that is how my husband responds - “stop asking me questions, it’s impossible to explain”) or (2) it is too difficult for ME to learn (“because I mastered it when I was two years old, why are all foreigners so stupid?”)
However, I have heard unanimously from Hungarians they absolutely hated grammar class in elementary school.
My first post in journaly years ago was something along the lines of “if all serial killers had traumatic childhoods, why don’t all Hungarian children grow up to be serial killers?” Insinuating the grammar was torture.
Actually Hungarian grammar is a non-ending source of amusement for me. It is actually something that makes me happy to learn.
I write about my research into Hungarian grammar here:
https://hunfriend.com/files/egyeb/grammar.html
@Nemvagok. Then I promise I won't say that again.😉 I believe the problem with grammar (not Hungarian grammar, but any grammar) comes from the education system. At ten or twelve, kids don't really see how valuable it is to go deep into their language.
I didn't appreciate English grammar until I was an adult and wanted to speak and write correctly, which isn't always appreciated nowadays. But you've done an amazing job! Making Hungarian grammar engaging for your kids truly shows how much you care about them and the language. Congratulations!